You must log in or register to comment.
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is much more nuanced. Both countries’ current heads of state are kinda like “all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.” It’s unclear who is right.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other, the other just want it back. Ukraine’s government is not claiming half of Russia.
Edit: removed implied support for Hamas. Both militaries should burn. Hope for a quick end to the conflict for the sake of the civilians affected.
At the end of the day who is Isreal and who Palestine. If no one who was alive when Palestine was around can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”. It’s like the ship Theseus or something. Maybe I’m just dumb as fuck.
Just make the fuck up and work together instead of being greedy bigots.
can anyone rightfully claim it the land belongs to “Palestine”
You should tell that to Israel, which is expelling Palestinians from this land every week for decades. It is not the Palestinians who are claiming the land exclusively to themselves and expelling others from it. It is Israel doing that. I find it crazy that you somehow argue this as if Palestine is doing that.
Palestinians lost the wars. Multiple wars. At this point there really isn’t a point in contesting against Israel when they can integrate with Israel peacefully instead.
Israel is not offering “peaceful integration”. Have a look at Palestinians who already live outside of Gaza, in the rest of occupied Palestine. The only choices are leave, suffer or resist.
Palestinians don’t offer peaceful integration either, since they like to resist so much as a group that Israelis don’t know who they can trust.
Your sentence doesn’t make sense. Moreover, the Palestinian stance of most groups has been integration and living together peacefully and happily. “Resisting” their expulsion and the murder against them does not contradict that.
“Unclear who is right”
No it’s pretty clear, out with the colonizer government. How is this a question?
It isn’t that nuanced. The colonized, subjugated population is rising up rather than laying down to continue getting slaughtered.
Liberate Palestine.
From the river to the sea
I get that there is lot more nuances than russo-ukrainian, but imo there is a lot more similarities than you seem to imply : both Russia and Israel claimed that the land belonged to them before, that they should get it back, and use violence to kill local people who tried to resist or move them. The only difference is that Israel did it with the help of western countries and partially according to their laws, so they get like an aura of legitimity, but the acts remains quite close.
I do not like when people basically do not accept violent behavior but accepts them when they are allowed by some law or authority.
(Also yes Hamas is doing bad things and should be held accountable in some way, just like Ukraine to my eyes. But still, for me it remains obvious who kills more, who steals more, who oppresses more)
As a Ukrainian, let’s sort out what we’re accountable for once we’re not getting genocided. We also have a lot of questions to our own government, but I would still prefer it to the Russian
Palestine has attacked territory that was assigned to Palestine by the UN in 1947. The UN also makes it very clear that a country may lawfully recover occupied territory “by any means, including armed force”. UN laws are thus very clear: Ukraine and Palestine can recover territories by force. Now, that doesn’t mean you should support them in their struggle to do so, but if you don’t, it must be for some other reason (e.g., Israel taking over would constitute a huge strategic gain for the US, while Russia taking over would destabilize the world and thus benefit small or weakly aligned players).
Wait, what!? How would this be a “huge strategic gain for the U.S.”?
You could argue that it’s a proxy conflict between the West and radicalized Muslim states. Sure. I would even listen to a discussion about rich elites using governments to keep areas destabilized in order to further their own fortunes.
But saying that somehow the U.S. would gain a huge strategic advantage is reaching.
What would the strategic value be? Is there oil there? Would they put a base there that somehow had more capabilities than facilities they already have in the area?
This isn’t 5D chess. This is two cultures that refuse to get along, being supported openly, and behind closed doors by larger nations.
Israel hates it’s neighboring countries for good reason. Those countries hate Israel for good reasons.
The human rights violations are disgusting and I support the freeing of Palestine.
But when you do shit like what the Hamas just did, you destroy any sort of moral high ground you may have had. Two wrongs don’t make a right, no matter what your culture is.
You can’t divorce Hamas from Palestine either, like some commentors are trying to do.
Tribalism at its worst.
That really is the problem. Both sides suck in this war.
On the one side we have a colonial apartheid regime that tries to steal every inch of land while imprisoning the native population in ghettos and restricting their economic and human development and trampling their human rights.
On the other side we have a desparate population seething with righteous rage at their oppression that has rejected every attempt at compromise and is only willing to stop once they have fully driven off every last invader off their land, but realistically they don’t have the power or international support to achieve that, and they also never owned every inch of the land, either. So. Their ambition is neither realistic nor righteous.
While most Israelis are European colonists who could migrate to either Europe or America, not all of them are and it would not be fair to those whose ancestors lived in the region for hundreds of years to become refugees.
So anyway. I think the EU, UK, USA and Arab league need to come up with a reasonable plan - in consultation with the Israelis and Palestinians - and just force Israel and the Palestinians to accept the most reasonable plan. Both groups are fully dependent on their benefactors, while their domestic politics prevent them from solving it without external pressure.
“Lets have some nuance” people on their way to defend Nazi war criminals
all this land is my country’s, the other country should not exist.
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
The Russo-Ukranian conflict is clear. One leader is claiming the land of the other
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
I am not claiming what Russia is saying is true, but it is not what you make it seem to make your argument.
Russias pretext for the war is complete horseshit. They have been supporting the rebels in these breakaway republics that magically appeared just after Russia annexed Crimea in 2014. Their support went beyond the usual proxy war/hybrid warfare bs, as hundreds of russian armed service men were confirmed KIA in Donezk and Luhansk.
Also there’s not a shred of evidence for the secret nazi government of Ukraine (led by a Jewish president) and Ukraines bid to join nato was 1. Years of not decades from its realization and 2. None of Russias business.
Remember that time the donbass “rebels” shot a civilian aircraft out of the sky using Russian weapons? Which they had because Russia was not invading Ukraine?
Russias pretext for the war complete horseshit
Why are you arguing with me about Russias pretext, as if I’m telling you I support them? I specifically said I don’t. Stop deflecting please, and argue my actual point.
OK then please clarify what exactly you mean here:
One of those countries is an ethno-religious state that is exclusive of the other. Can you guess which one?
You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine.
If you are an ethno-religious exclusivist who says “your country shouldn’t exist only mine!” and I am a country that multi-religious, and say “actually my country should be the prevailing one, not your exclusivist one”, you gotta realize those two are massively different, unlike you portray.
Israel has continuously expanded its settlements on the west bank in the Gaza strip. They did so, citing security concerns, in reality there are probably more religious reasons for doing that. The goal with these settlements is to chip away on territories that belong to Palestine.
Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant. Hamas is massively antisemitic and even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push.
This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to. This seems to bother people and will make the political parts of lemmy pretty insufferable for the next couple of weeks.
You can only be talking about Palestine here, right? There is limited Muslim representation in Israel and no jewish representation in Palestine
Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.
Whatever “muslim” representation there is in Israel, it is as good as none and does not change that it is an exclusive theocracy. Literally there is no equivalent to their religious exclusivism in any Muslim-majority nation. It is only matched by militant groups like ISIS.
Meanwhile I have no doubts that if Palestine had a button that would make all jews evaporate, they’d not hesitate to push it in an instant.
Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.
And you don’t have to hypothesize. Before Israel was created, and during the increase of Jewish migrations in the 19th century and early 20th, Arabs never enacted any genocide against the Jews or did what Israel does today. In fact, European Jews found it to be a safe haven in comparison to Europe.
Hamas is massively antisemitic
Hamas only garners support because it is the only group left putting up a fight. It was never popular before that. But because of that, it has many non-Hamas-ians joining its ranks, and many of them reiterate their support for living peacefully among Jews.
And its important to point out that Hamas only climbed up to this position because of Israeli support more than a decade ago. This is Israel’s own admission. They did not want progressive groups leading the resistance, and propped up Hamas instead. I’d be happy to cite you Israeli officials saying this.
even the more moderate part of Palestine seems to condone the military push
That doesn’t mean they’re anti Semitic. The operation primarily targeted military installations, soldiers and officials. It is resistance against the Israeli state. So supporting this operation is being opposed to the Israeli state, not because they wish to evaporate all Jews. That’s ridiculous.
This situation is massively more complex than the Russo Ukraine war and there is no obvious good guy you can point to.
It is quite the opposite. Russia-Ukraine involves two States with crimes on their records, and I only side with Ukraine because Russia is the aggressor. But Ukraine is far from being a good guy. Israel-Palestine is an apartheid state against stateless people getting murdered and expelled from their lands, and their best fight is minor incursions on the border. It is very much a one-sided fight.
Israel is a Jewish theocracy by its own admission. Palestine has Muslims and Christians. Palestine was never ruled by a theocracy. The most popular groups have always been secular (example: PFLP). Even the Palestinian Authority is secular.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_State_of_Palestine West Bank Muslim 80–85% (predominantly Sunni) Jewish 12–14% Christian 1.0–2.5%, (mainly Greek Orthodox)[8]
Gaza Strip Sunni Muslim 98–99%, Arab Christians 0.2% (2,000 to 3,000 est.), other, unaffiliated, unspecified <1.0% (2012 est.).
At least bother looking some of this stuff up…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popular_Front_for_the_Liberation_of_Palestine The PFLP has generally taken a hard line on Palestinian national aspirations, opposing the more moderate stance of Fatah. It does not recognise the State of Israel, it opposes negotiations with the Israeli government, and favours a one-state solution to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict. […] The PFLP has been designated a terrorist organisation by the United States,[10] Japan,[11] Canada,[12] Australia[13] and the European Union.[14]
These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not. Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.
Source? This is an extremely bad faith argument. “A is genocidal. B has never done so. But I’m sure B would if they could, so that means A is justified!”. Please read that again and tell me you don’t see how ridiculous it sounds.
It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal. And that’s not the first time an arab nation tries something like that, Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened. Also, Israels genocide is a cultural genocide (which is pretty bad) and I wish they didn’t do what they are doing. Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.
I’m not going to bother to continue, go outside and leave lemmygrad for a while comrade. Good night.
At least bother looking some of this stuff up…
I’m not sure which part of those statistics you think contradicts what I said. Can you please quote which part of what I said contradicts it? Your statistics confirm what I said. Go back and read what I said.
These guys seem like complete nutcases, secular or not.
Is this an argument? I am going to ignore it because I find no substance here, but if there’s something I’m missing, let me know.
Also they are by no means politically popular, as opposed to Hamas and Fatah.
They were very popular before Hamas became the only group left fighting. Check out the PLO, of which they were a part of. Many of the prominent Palestinian figures were part of PFLP as well.
It’s not bad faith at all, they literally have eradicating Israel as their mission goal.
I literally just explained to you why it’s not. Feel free to argue my points directly, rather than restate the same statement I already disproved.
Iraq wanted to kill everyone in Israel with nerve gas in the 90s, that’s why the first golf war happened
And the second gulf war happened because of their WMDs. We all know how the state department narrative was correct without any issues at all, right? Right?
Yet I dare you to look up any imagery from the last 72 hours and tell me that you prefer the approach that Palestine is taking in Gaza.
Do you want to see the Palestinian child that was burned alive by Israeli fire? I can provide you a link.
I’m not going to bother to continue
That’s good. I prefer if you don’t. It’s not a good look. Please don’t spread misinformation elsewhere either.
Russia’s original pretext for the war is not about territorial gains. It was supposedly regarding Ukraine’s attack on Donetsk, Luhansk, and ethnic Russian populations in general (such as the Odessa massacre), what they also called “de-nazification” of the Ukrainian government, and Ukraine’s bid to join NATO. This is easily verifiable, but I can provide you a sources on this if you doubt me.
Is that the line this week? They’ve been moving the goalposts so rapidly they must be on wheels (and better maintained wheels than the Russian army)
The Russian propagandista changed their lines so many times it’s blindingly obvious that there’s no greater good and it was supposed to be a land-grab just like when they invaded and annexed Crimea
I feel like the people should have some say in who they want governing them.
True
It’s unclear who is right.
https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-184195/
- Reaffirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples for their independence, territorial integrity, national unity and liberation from colonial domination, apartheid and foreign occupation by all available means, including armed struggle;
Seems pretty clear.
Its unlcear who is right? Tell me, who lived there first before the US swung its dick around and displaced all of them?
Idk if this is a hot take, but imo the war in Ukraine is pretty clear city while the Palestinian and Israeli conflict his an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances.
It’s far less controversial to say the former is Russia’s fault than it is to say the latter is either Palestine’s or Israel’s fault.
Yeah mostly because isreal/ Palestine conflict is much older then russia/Ukraine so a lot of things happened. But at it’s very core they both started because of the same claim : russia claimed used to own Ukraine so they want it back. The jews used to own Palestine so they want it back. So if you support Ukraine and isreal you’re just a hypocrite
I haven’t seen anyone here “support Israel”. Almost everyone agrees that the Israeli State is not free of guilt, far from it.
What people really disagree over is whether that alone makes Palestine right (nuanced) and whether it justifies Hamas’ actions (unhinged but unfortunately semi-common take on here).
I mean, if you go further back than 1947/1948, didn’t the Palestinians used to own Israel? Or do we want to go even further back, to about 1200 BCE?
What nuance is there be had about this? Israel is a settler-colonial apartheid state that deserves what should’ve happened to America when those settlers were doing it. That’s like saying “the civil rights conflict has an infinite list of wrinkles and nuances”; in that it’s objectively wrong.
Palestinian conflict is very simple: an army vs civilians. Only gonna end when all the latter are dead.
Should we ever try to sanction that army? Never! Should we try sanctioning US for killing million iraqis who had not a WMD? No! Should we sanction Nato for bombing the wealthiest african estate libya to it’s ruin? Ah wait, WE are Nato. Can’t shoot own ankle.
Seems like both armies versus civilians.
There’s not many other conflicts where I can remark “two war crimes don’t make a right” damn near every time.
Hamas is a militia. They don’t have an airforce and whatever else is required to be a military.
I’d urge you to compare the casualties caused by each of the “armies”. Hamas is not even a fraction of the concern that Israel is.
It’s so much better that it’s a militia shooting at civilians instead of military
Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say, I will not entertain that. I am happy to respond to any arguments you make or answer any questions otherwise.
I’m just saying it’s a pretty pointless difference in this case, silly
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=Azs7As3MYFU
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
deleted by creator
I’ve seen so many stupid takes today, and this is one of them. The conflicts aren’t similar!
They’re not identical, but they have similarities. What Russia is trying to do to Ukraine is not dissimilar to what Israel did to Palestine half a century ago.
You are wrong. What Ukraine has been doing to Donbass for years, is what Israel is doing to Palestine for almost a century.
In what ways are they different that it justifies supporting Ukraine but not Palestine?
No one is saying they’re identical. But there are similarities.
deleted by creator
You can’t compare these 2 conflicts at all.
deleted by creator
Because Ukraine is not committing brutal crimes, not lobbing rockets randomly, hoping to kill anyone, civilian or not. Not hoping to eradicate their enemy (that is the stated goal of Hamas). Ukraine government is not in power because of violence, but because they were voted in. Hamas is in power only because they have weapons and other palestinians don’t (given to them by other extremist Muslims, who want to see Jews die).
So let me say it again, this conflict is not fucking comparable.
deleted by creator
I am not pro Israel. You are just assuming that for no fuckig reason.
Israel is committing what could be easily called genocide in Gaza. Moving settlers in, pushing palestinians away from their homes, killing their kids, their fathers. Doing who knows what else.
I am against Zionist Israel and against Hamas.
I am for a state for both Jews and Palestinians.
You can have that position.
Unlike the Ukranian conflict, both of the fighting sides are in the wrong. There should be no fighting to begin with. Only innocents suffer.
Yup don’t let them gaslight you buddy. This is how they do it.
deleted by creator
Did I make the meme? Am I the west or something? For all you know, I could not even be in the global west.
Not once have I supported the imperialism, I called what’s Israel is doing a genocide for crying out loud.
Get a fucking reality check buddy.
deleted by creator
I know what you mean and I also find western support of Israel appalling, but the meme is literally about the lack of support to Hamas, which makes sense given how they also like to randomly kill civilians.
How does the meme have anything to do with Hamas?
The meme has total of four words. How are you arriving at any conclusion on what the meme is about? It’s not even proper spelling according to Google translate.
gorilla insurgency
deleted by creator
Launching rockets at civilians isn’t glorious whether you’re Russian or Palestinian.
Or Israeli
Sure.
I like how you were downvoted for this. No you need to choose a side that you support 100%!!
I think maybe a lot of people failed to see that “Sure.” doesn’t necessarily mean sarcasm, and didn’t used to.
lemm ee and dbzer0 users on their way to passively support whatever evil regime is in power
lol
Maybe you should have checked to see who is hosting this community.
Why, what does it change about my joke?
deleted by creator
You’d have a good point except for the fact that Hamas governs the Gaza Strip. So, it’s like blaming the government of Ukraine for the actions of the Ukrainian government.
Also, don’t think I missed you making up anti-Russian pogroms in Ukraine, buddy
deleted by creator
Dumb meme, the 2 situations are not similar.
Yes, one is recent, impacts the West directly and a bunch of white people and the other is Palestine.
Nope, try again
How does a long time NATO ally not impact the west exactly? The Israel/Palestine confict has been in the news since I have paid attention to international politics.
That was the point. When it impacts the West directly, the we in the West decide to make things about right and wrong and morals and cook up excuses to throw more and more money because it serves our interests. When it’s Palestine… we decide to throw all of that out of the window and decide fund Israel (the aggressor) instead.
This entire weird conversation aside, Palestine/Israel conflict does not currently affect the West. It could hypothetically escalate until it affected the West I suppose.
Also, Israel is not in NATO. They are a “NATO partner” but are not legally tied to the security alliance.
2edgy4me
I hope Russia invades your house. Not your country or neighbourhood, but just your house specifically.
They’re not identical but there are many similarities.
Palestine is attacking israel.
israel is fighting back
israel is much more powerful and will level Palestine in an afternoon if they want
does that give israel the right to level Palestine? no not directly. if you had a country attacking you, killing your citizens and you wanted them to stop and they wouldnt stop no matter what, what do YOU do?
the US would drop a nuke in this situation to be a moral dilemma 70 years later.
is Palestine stupid for talking shit and not backing it up yes. is israel overreacting? yes. Hindsight is 20/20 not that israel cares but Palestine should stop trying to be what theyre not
feel free to educate me as i dont know much about this subject.
You clearly don’t.
deleted by creator
And Israel has a history of propping up Hamas. They even admit it.
Hamas is the only defense of Palestine. Zionists are one of the most evil bunch on Earth.
IMO everyone should leave everyone else the fuck alone and stop trying to be modern empires, but come on man, these are VERY different situations.
(Edit: what I’m about to say is a good bit wrong, but I’m not going to try and hide my mistakes. This article has a more complete history: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/why-israel-and-palestine-conflict-war-history-b2426050.html)
I don’t support the violence at all, but this isn’t a (direct) result of imperialism.
After WW2, the Allies were like, “what do we do with all these Jews? We don’t want them in our countries.” Then they thought, “why not Jerusalem?” But a bunch of Arabs were living there, but the Allies really didn’t want more Jews, so they just dumped them all in modern Israel, told the Arabs this is Jews’ land now, and recognized Israel as a state. Palestine has a right to be pissed. So this isn’t so much an imperialism problem as much as a racism problem.
But still, Hamas are evil fuckers that take shit too far. Israel definitely is not the good guy and is not helping the situation at all, but this kind of escalation just makes shit worse for everyone.
“why not Jerusalem?”
That wasn’t the allies, zionism predates the holocaust by decades, it’s the literal promised land from their stupid fucking religion.
I haven’t heard any reports of Ukrainians slaughtering fleeing civilians, though, so…
ho boy, here we go again.
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it. So all I can do is judge both sides by their current actions without historical justification which, to me, results in fanatical religious fascists fighting fanatical religious fascists with neither side caring for civilian casualties. Not exactly a situation in which I’d support any side tbh.
Thank you. There’s way too many people claiming one or the other side is justified or worse and frankly at this point they’ve both committed so many atrocities against one another that it’s hard to have an emotional or subjective response other than, they’re both pretty shitty.
Also just looking at history isn’t going to solve anything. If that was the only solution we can just get any map remove all borders everywhere and discus how to draw them based on history. We all know this is just going to be a never ending discussion because it just depends on what snapshot in time (of the world) you take as your truth.
no historical context needed. History is not useful at all to understand current actions. Do your own research, but i can tell you The british supported jewish militias, to occupy that territory (under british control). That started the ethnic cleasing of palestinians in 1948, displacing millions. I dont know how to link stuff pls help me
At this point in time that conflict has been going on for so long, I have no clue anymore who started it.
You know very well who started it. You just want to pretend that historical facts are lost to the sands of time because they’re damaging to your centrist bullshit.
Just out of curiosity what do you think should happen? Should Israel just give up the land to Palestinians? Should Palestinians give up the land to Israel? Should they coexist and if so how do you see that happening? I really am asking because I really don’t understand how “how it started” is going to make a peaceful ending. I also don’t understand why anyone who isn’t from the locality and impacted by it should be stepping in for either side of what amounts to civil war. Especially not America who has a habit of doing so all over the world which usually ends badly for the people who live there when our puppet regimes tank.
Israeli settlers should return to the country that they or their family came from originally. This is not like settlers in the America’s where we are talking 200+ years of families living there. This started after WW2 when the bigoted west could not bear to live with jews even after the holocaust, so they had to send them off on a settler project to other lands. Palestinian lands. Israelis should go back home, and the places they came from should pay for the reestablishing of their families. As well as paying reparations to Palestine. Isreal is not a legitimate nation. It is a colonial project occupying the nation of Palestine and the settlers must leave if there is to be peace.
“Israeli settlers should return to the country that they or their family came from originally.”
Oh? How far back are we going here? What if their family originally came from Palestine? What happens then?
“This is not like settlers in the America’s where we are talking 200+ years of families living there.” This is an interesting point that is literally under contention right now because those people came from somewhere and we don’t even know who was here first because it changes every few years. How many years of settling constitute the land belonging to you?
Where did the Israeli people actually first come from. Go back far enough and crazily enough I think you’ll find that these people do have historical roots in this locality before WW2. This conflict spans probably close to a thousand years. Picking and choosing which bit of history supports your narrative doesn’t invalidate the rest of it.
You are being ridiculous by pretending that Israel in antiquity is at all relevant to the current colonial project that was started within living memory. If the families originally came from Palestine then the people are Palestinian regardless of whatever ethnostate bullshit the settler government might have spouted to blur the lines. I am saying that any settler families who have gone to occupy Palestine in the last 80 years should return to their home nations. Anyone else is Palestinian, whether muslim, jewish, or otherwise. And would stay to live under the Palestinian nation.
Why do you think this is a peaceful resolution? Why do you think those other countries will just open their arms and take back Israel’s? They don’t have home nations if they were born in Palestine.
This war is fueled by what amount to a religious disagreement. Pretending it’s not is kind of a garbage take and pretending it’s as easy as just send those people home is also garbage. You don’t see it that way because you’re looking at historical context of the last 100 years on purpose.
This is the equivalent of the movement in America who want to end birthright citizenship. It doesn’t make sense and it’s specifically tied to anti-immigration sentiment that ignores that essential the US is made up of immigrants. It’s similar to pretending Columbus discovered America when we know the Vikings were here before him and the Natives before them and so on.
Like. I’m not pro Israel. I actually think this is a conflict that can’t be one and both sides are wrong. But you seem to have drawn your line in the sand and therefore this conversation is over.
Why do you think this is a peaceful resolution?
The current status quo of apartheid and genocide is not exactly leading to a peaceful resolution is it? Why must Palestinian survival and liberation be entirely bloodless? And why can settlers not leave without bloodshed?
Why do you think those other countries will just open their arms and take back Israel’s?
Luckily the settlers have had decades of looting Palestine, so they could afford to leave if necessary. An option that the Palestinian people have been denied by the exploitation and literal encirclement under apartheid.
They don’t have home nations if they were born in Palestine.
They have settled within living memory and know very well where they came from.
This war is fueled by what amount to a religious disagreement.
No the war is fueled by the continued expansion of a colonial ethnostate which is genociding the native population. You are the one spewing ahistorical garbage.
You said as much in your top comment when you admitted to having no knowledge of the situations history.Edit- Sorry, I confused you with the first person, who claimed memory issues to pretend history started on Saturday. The rest of the point stands.You don’t see it that way because you’re looking at historical context of the last 100 years on purpose.
You previously wanted to dilute the issue by examining things as far back as antiquity. Now you want to throw out historical analysis from the relevant time period because it’s inconvenient? Do you have any ideas at all or will you simply say whatever is required?
This is the equivalent of the movement in America who want to end birthright citizenship. It doesn’t make sense and it’s specifically tied to anti-immigration sentiment that ignores that essential the US is made up of immigrants.
This is not equivalent at all. Israeli settlers are currently genociding the native population. Whereas in America the current population are settlers who have nearly finished their genocide. Current immigrants to America are not genociding the population. How is that a take you just seriously put forward? Are you a white supremacist buying into great replacement theory?
Like. I’m not pro Israel.
You support the status quo that ends with the eradication of the Palestinian people and the dissolution of their state. How are you not pro Isreal?
But you seem to have drawn your line in the sand and therefore this conversation is over.
Yes it’s called having an actual position. But sure we can be done now that I’ve had a fair chance to speak.
Simple, Palestinians are brown and have less resources that America wants/needs.
I’m with both Palestinians and Ukrainians.
Palestine has oil and gas same with Ukraine.
Hurr durr, now that a palestinian terrorist group is attacking is the best moment to be vocal about palestinian freedom
And you people wonder why you get downvoted?
You’re telling on yourself. You genuinely don’t give a shit about the Palestinian struggle. You just want them to sit down and take their genocide.
Perhaps they could sit down when it comes to killing innocent civvies and stick to military targets. I have always been outspoken in Palestine’s favor but lines were crossed and nobody should support it.
i am not supporting it, but i have hard times defending israel either, both sides are an absolute shit show and have their reasons, but in my eyes, the palestines have a stronger claim to the land. then again, this whole war is based on religions, where i, as an atheist, have nothing to say at all, because without religions, there wouldnt be a claimable holy city and no war whos the truthful owner of it, it would just be another land.
this whole war is based on religions
Not entirely, there is a lot of geopolitical power struggle there as well. Israel was born as a “western puppet” that soon grew and became “too important to abandon”. Without it, the arab nations would be more likely to ignore whatever the western powers demand, as they’d have a hard time reaching them. With Israel, it’s like a gun’s permanently pointed at them and “any funny business” against them means you also have to deal with USA
Yep, mask right off.
Try attacking military bases and armored vehicles with fireworks.
Read about war history. Civilian strikes are usually countered with opposite civilian strikes.
Legitimatlly curious if 6 months has changed your perspective?
Not at all. That was still the wrong moment to do it. NOW (and for the past few months, since Israel began its full-blown open genocide) is the right time.
Hey thanks for the response.
Has your opinion of Isreal changed because of the last few months? If so has that changed how you view their actions in the past against the Palestinian people?
If the comparison of Russia in Ukraine to Isreal in Palestine was only made legitimate in the past few months, then how do you view the Nakba?
Has your opinion of Isreal changed because of the last few months?
It changed insofar as going from “they’re a pretty horrible fascist society” to “they’re straight up Nazis”.
If so has that changed how you view their actions in the past against the Palestinian people?
Not really.
If the comparison of Russia in Ukraine to Isreal in Palestine was only made legitimate in the past few months […]
You’re commiting a fallacy, I believe and hope unintentionally. Israel has always been the aggressor, I’ve never contradicted that. However, defending a population associated with a vile terrorist group at a time said group has just attacked is simply bad politics - you’ll not get many allies and now your detractors have a concrete event to point towards when dismissing your position. At present, Israel has effectively admitted to wanting a genocide and Hamas has waved the white flag multiple times, so it’s the perfect moment, politically, to defend the Palestine.
Both suck to be fair but Israel for me suck less. My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US. Israel though recently leaning more to the extreme right, is still liberal compared to the rest of the nations in middle east. Woman has more freedom under Israel it seems. LGBT is more supported in Israel. For Hamas on the other hand has the same vibe for me with Taliban it doesn’t help that it is supported by Iran and Russia. As for Ukraine I support them since they lean more to the West (EU and the US) and they are more democratic than Russia. That’s my thought anyway.
So you support Israel committing genocide in Palestine because they lean west. Way to go lil bro
No surprise, given that genocide is the foundation of the western civilization.
Is there a single western civilization that wasn’t built in the flesh, bones, blood, and bile of the colonized tho? Like, one.
Ireland, though they are extremely supportive of Palestine.
They understand what it takes to get a boot off of your neck.
Weeeeeeell…I like the Irish and I think they’ve been awesome all around (the IRA and their support for Palestine), but even by their mythology they apparently did colonize their lands ages ago; something about defeating the Tuatha De Danann who themselves defeated the Fir Bolg and the Fomorians. The De Danann, Fir Bolg and Fomorians are depicted as inhuman beings but I personally think these were peoples who lived in extremely ancient Ireland who were defeated by the ancestors of modern day Irish people, but then, this would have been quite a few thousand years ago anyway and holding it against them would be silly (basically it was so long ago that it’s not even concrete whether this myth has any basis in reality and certainly no trace of those peoples, their culture and their civilizations still exist; also even if you decide to believe the myth has some basis in reality behind it, Irish culture has not been a culture of colonizers for the last several thousand years).
That’s not really a culture of colonizers even during the height of Ancient Erin. A possible analog for a past group that very well could be a stand-in for inter proto-Irish conflicts as much as inter Gaelic ones is so tenuous at best. Most cultures have something like this, and it would be tantamount to saying there was an inherent colonial culture in the Ho-Chunk people because the Wąge-rucge man-eaters might be a cultural memory of another tribe their ancestors fought against.
There is a world of difference between human migration and conflicts arising therein and what we would identify as colonialism. Why even bring it up as such? Plus the Tuatha De Danann from even a quick search seem to be theorized to be Gaelic gods recontextualized into a post-Christianization culture. So it is literally not even from a culture of colonizers, but the reformatting of their own beliefs to a context of a cultural conversion. They seem to have come to mean “folk” or people much later and originally the term implied godliness. And then there is the PIE stuff and war between gods with humans in the middle which is foundational to a ton of places meaning it could either be remnants of a way more ancient myth shared with the Vedic and Norse etc, or a recontextualization of unique traditions subconsciously along the same lines as more eastern Europeans and Indo-European cultures. Least that’s how I view the Iliad elements in Irish myth, maybe a shared tradition or more likely later writers put characters and stories into a structure they already knew, ie the most recited myth in Europe.
We really need to be careful with history and modern terminology/conceptions. Cultures did not really remove one another necessarily, nor can we accurately talk about Bronze-Age and earlier cultures in strictly defined terms. We use names given to types of pottery we find to describe a general human presence in a large area across thousands of years. It is broad and ambiguous on purpose. Hell even more recent cases like the Germanic “colonization” of Celtic England is WAY more ambiguous than previous historians thought.
For that history and a good object lesson on how complicated human migration is to decode there is a great video by CambrianChronicles on Brythonic Britons and how they never disappeared https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FHRTpEhaAs
And that’s not to say that there was not a colonization and resistance in that case, far from it. There we have a material understanding of both cultures that can be defined even if the lines between the people of them is nonexistent in a practical sense. CambrianChronicles has several videos including one I LOVE on Arthur that drive home how originally Welsh/Briton Arthur was essentially a propaganda character for anti-imperialist movements. My point is the distinctions quickly disappear and framing there as being such a thing as “culture of colonizers” in a time when people hardly if at all identified themselves as having a culture is silly, applying it as far back as the etymological history and patchwork shifts in linguistic groups of the Bronze age is downright ahistoric. Especially with Celts, the very definition of which is hotly debated.
Another good POV is the short but wonderful history of the Bronze Age Collapse “1177: the year civilization ended” which shows some amazing research on how crises cause mass migration and why old models of how ancient Greeks came to Greece are pretty off base, with what was thought to be an invasion from the west by the Dorians might’ve been large refugee movements from Asia Minor which coincided with populations from Mycenean Greece fleeing eastward due to their problems. Heck the Sea Peoples are very possibly a phenomenon of various refugee crises and/or desperate moves by kingdoms we know for sure about trying to stay alive during what must’ve felt like an apocalypse.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://www.piped.video/watch?v=5FHRTpEhaAs
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
That’s because Ireland is a colonial victim, not a colonizer.
Yes.
I am still trying to find it, though. Error 404 keeps turning, help 😭
Curious, Tell me why should I support the Hamas instead?
You should not. But you should see the conditions under which Hamas has formed and how the Occupiers are at fault for this. The greater Palestinian cause is far more in the moral right than Israel has ever been.
Thanks appreciate the answer.
Emotional responses don’t lead to any solutions. Only reason will create a peaceful two state solution.
The Victims should never bargain with the invaders. Slava Ukraini Slava Palestini.
“I support the fascistsdoing a genocide because they’re aligned with us and do our bidding” is the kind of honesty we’re looking for from liberals on foreign policy.
Genuinely, thank you for your honesty. Can you please tell the rest of the libs to communicate like this and we wouldn’t be as mean to them.
To be fair that is what both sides are doing China, Russia, US, EU, India and Iran. They all support those who do their bidding. Though I have a feeling everything is fascist on your dictionary that does not align with your view.
Counterpoint: aligning with the west/the US is bad.
Counter-counterpoint : alternative is WAY worse. Unless you count EU as dissimilar to US?
He’s from hexbear, he only believes in Chinese totalitarian dictatorship.
Considering the United States is responsible for the majority of wars that have happened since WW2 and the pentagon is the worlds greatest emitter of greenhouse gasses, we’re the only country whose ever used Nukes, also the country with the most nukes, I think your concern for “cultural” differences is completely conceded, and ignorant, also probably coming from a place of overt or subconscious racism, which is sadly typical of westerners, especially Americans. America is so comically evil it makes North Korea look like a puppy (and I don’t but this axis of evil crap, America is the great satan).
There are plenty of places more “ethical” in the global south than the west- which again is mostly responsible for the planet burning down and endless global war- and they all pretty much align with Palestine. Not to mention Mass shootings and endless police violence is deeply rooted in settler colonialism, and ever present in colonizer and colonized countries. The west is a miserable and pathetic place, with awful values that constantly tries to hide behind a veil of homonationalism while being responsible for intentionally creating the most terrible, genocidal regimes abroad, like Israel. All y’all can do is cope, and seethe while the scientists brain drain off to China.
lemmygrad
Oh boi that’s going to be fun.
actually reads
You don’t stand my main point. US are bad sure, but the rest is just worse.
Also China brain draining scientists LOL and I’m the one coping?
Sorry buddy but the brim drain is real and only getting worse:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/03/business/china-brain-drain.html
No educated person wants to live in a society where college shootings among other mass shootings are regular.
Your main point is a lie, is all I’m saying.
You have no proof to back it up, nor are you actually engaging at all with any of the information or examples I provided that disprove that the rest of the world is somehow worse than the USA. The places that are, are only so because of decades of war, colonialism and resource extraction, the recent wars in the Middle East- iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Palestine are just the most recent examples.
If you’re too much of a coward to engage with information outside of your western liberal bubble because “oh no Lemmygrad” than it only further proves my point, you have nothing and the United States is the worst of all the shithole countries.
You’re reading your article backwards. China is SUFFERING from a brain drain. China is LOSING their scientists.
The interesting part is they’re not going to the US.
They’re not going to the USA because its a MASSIVE shithole that doesn’t value education (teacher shortage, miserable pay, regular shootings) or science (its politicians hardly believe in climate change, religious ghouls and Anarcho-capitalist “free market” neoliberal idiots). Conditions in large parts of the rural USA are reminiscent of Cambodia and the worst, poorest areas of the “developed” world. Source: https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-un-poverty-environmental-racism-743601
I don’t blame the worlds smartest people for not wanting to come here, this place is truly pathetic, infrastructure is crumbling, homlessness is rampant and growing rapidly, with no fucking decent healthcare to deal with the mental fallout. The worst part, and the thing that makes the Untied States one of the worst, if not THE worst country on the planet is that is CAN fix these issues, but it CHOOSES not to, but endlessly funds the pentagon and military to continue it’s overseas imperialism, forever pretending it’s the hero and not the instigator. Sorry, but at least places like China do something about it, common prosperity seems to be more than just propaganda- it has massively improved the material conditions of its citizens. Massive home ownership rate, and retirement age is 57. No nation state is perfect but it, along with other AES stats and some non AES states practicing Keynesian economics are far better suited for living than America, unless you’re rich or a racist fuking WASP.
Mike Pompeo has called china a Marxist-leninist state, before one of you libs reading this comes out saying “oh but China is capitalist.” It’s not, that’s why they aren’t living miserably like we are here, it’s actually safe there, and they have a plan for the future. You can read China’s five year plans, it’s not some mysterious black box, and it aint perfect either but it’s waaaay better than here where the goverment is perpetually in fear of shutting down. No nation-state is perfect, but least I know I wont get shot in a mass killing or for being visibly queer- and before you homonationalists come out of the woodwork, China’s version of Oprah Winfrey, Jin Xing, is a trans woman. Shanghai has a drag scene. Chengdu is called the “Gay Capitol” of china.
Even if I did accidentally post the wrong article it doesn’t affect my point that America is one of the WORST countries you could choose to live in, if you have a choice and aren’t a millionaire or billionaire. For fucks sake, Cuba has a higher life expectancy because people here are so miserable, and healthcare is so poor that people are killing themselves in record numbers. I have yet to see you, or any other liberal come up with a shred of evidence, or even an argument for WHY you think America is better than every other country in the world. American Exceptionalism is a string drug, too bad I’m allergic to nationalist bullshit.
Here are many correct china articles by the way, the NYT is a propaganda rag I should have avoided anyway: https://www.science.org/content/article/china-aggressively-recruited-foreign-scientists-now-it-avoids-talking-about-those https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/04/29/abandoning-the-us-more-scientists-go-to-china/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/07/13/chinese-scientists-united-states-research-tech-academia-china-initiative/
This one by CATO tracks non-chinese ethic scientists, whether you want to believe it or not, it’s a trend, because America is trash. https://www.cato.org/blog/abandoning-us-more-scientists-go-china
I can dig deeper if you insist, I actually have free time today.
Cuban life expectancy rising above USA: https://www.newsweek.com/americans-can-now-expect-live-three-years-less-cubans-1739507
sorry buddy, but just because I mistakenly posted the wrong article, it doesn’t disprove my point- literally CUBA of all places is safer, has better healthcare, and education than the United States. China is running circles around it with regards to infrastructure, technology and education, would sure be nice to have high speed rails instead of having to rely 100% on crumbling infrastructure and expensive gasoline.
And before you say “oh no authoritarianism” please, pleaaaase tell me how having a militarized occupying police force that can murder you anytime with impunity, and suspend your sacred “freeze peach” at their whim is somehow “less” authoritarian. The city of Portland did it during 2020, and it’s a “Liberal” city. Your so called freedoms are just an illusion, the second you push back even remotely on behalf of the working class or minorities the mask comes off and the libs reveal themselves as the reactionaries they are, using every tool- including fascism - to suppress the movement.
The United States, is not just the most violent country on the planet, responsible for the majority of climate change, war, and poverty, but its also a miserable place to live for an increasing majority of it’s citizens.
You are still very, very wrong in your analysis, most likely coming from a place of EXTREME privilege and ignorance.
And why is that?
All the genocide perhaps?
My reason is simple why I would align under the US, my country has mutual defense on them. The neighbouring country who is China claims major part of my country. The US offers free speech, they are willing to change no matter how slow. They may be messy but atleast they don’t prosecute their citizens for talking bad to their government. There is Women and LGBTQ rights. They got the big stick. What is your alternative?
My reasoning mostly stem on their Ideology. Israel leans more to the US.
Mask off lmao
Dude have you seen what Hamas did yesterday? Kidnapping children, women, elders. Even burnt houses to get families out of their homes to kidnap them. No matter how sympathetic you are towards palestinians, no one with a right conscious can support them.
Israel has been doing this shit for decades. It’s just blowback of unending oppression by Israel. People in Palestine can either wait and get genocided or fight back.
Lol yup Israel has been taking down buildings for years taking people’s life, history and financial gain and turn it to rubble because someone in the building may have helped hamas. No trial, no questioning, just a small bomb going off on your roof too warn you to run the fuck away before you die in a collapsed building.
Oh, so Israel has kidnapped German tourists in Gaza, raped them, murdered them, paraded their naked corpses through Tel Aviv, and spat on them?
No, they just do this to Palestinian civilians, but since they don’t have blue eyes and blond hair racists such as yourself don’t consider them to be people.
Uh, almost certainly they have done that or something akin to it, I wouldn’t defend either side, they’ve both done countless atrocities to one another and people from outside.
But Ukraine hasn’t done any of this type of stuff so the equivalence falls apart.
For the record: israel bad.
I mean they bombed the shit out of the Donbass for almost a decade before the war broke out, so yeah they were doing it too.
I’m confused… Are the only choices hamas or Israel? Is that how people really see things?
I fucking hate this world sometimes.
I love how the upvote/downvote rate is almost 1
Western hypocricy never ceases to amaze
What if I told you stuff is always “amazing you” because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of them.
You’d expose yourself as a victim of Dunning-Kruger.
Go ask the Palestinians if US intervention has been a big misunderstanding and they’re actually looking out for them and bringing them democracy like they say
You said “western hypocracy” while I blame ignorance about history as a bigger matter here
You just described “western hypocrisy.”
In every sense of the word, you are the only hypocrite here
