Chana [none/use name]

I dunno they might know so little that they wouldn’t quite understand the meaning of venerating Robert E. Lee.

Yes really. Let’s review:

“Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden”. This is them pointing out that you’re making meaningless distinction. That Zelensky presided over cancelled elections and you’re trying to split hairs to avoid the obvious: cancelled elections for dear liberal leader. Note that none of these things happened under Maduro, so the original meme is on-point for the consistency of liberal democratic rhetoric. You then justified cancelling elections during war, implicitly ceding the point despite your posturing.

“Sorry you’re not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me.” Again AntiOutsideAktion has your number. Your spiel about cancelling elections during war is obviously undemocratic, but you try to pass it off as the exact opposite, as increasing democracy, using ingrained Russophobic illogic. The Russians could influence elections! So cancelling them makes sense? Sure bud. You were corrected here as well. Rather than directly respond to this obvious point, you decide to instead focus on Russian influence of elections and implicitly how AntiOutsideAktion clearly doesn’t understand it, it’s time for you to lecture on that instead of responding to what they actually said.

“And that’s why democracy is for another time.” See how they try to bring your attention back to the point? This is becaues your previous comment was evasive. They are poking fun at you with it, but also you are behaving poorly and dishonestly in this interaction. Their treatment of you is entirely correct.

“If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn’t have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for.” As we can see, AntiOutsideAktion is correct about this. As we have reviewed, the interior ministry has plenty of neo-Nazis in it, as do military and police forces. As you should know, a prior government was overthrown undemocratically, with heavy US influence, with people like Nuland having conversationsa bout who will be installed next. You should also understand, but I think don’t, that a government giving Nazis that much legitimacy and power is itself fundamentally Nazi. I think you really don’t get that. “But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn’t be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power.” See, the point here is that you should reject the undemocratic Zelensky regime. Hell Donbas didn’t even get a liberal electoral voice for eyars as its population centers were shelled by Kiev-backed Nazis. Note that this split is along ethnic lines. " So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?" Now AntiOutsideAKtion tries to cut to the chase, because you are dithering and evading. Are you simply ignorant and foolish in your approach, truly believing this horseshit dissembling, equating antidemocracy with democracy, or are you knowingly lying and pushing these false narratives? Personally I know that it is both, because you have never responded well to correction and you know as well as I do that you are very selective in how you respond. You go on and on and on about your absurd lectures on electoral strategy, repeating yourself ad nauseum, but deign to respond to most direct criticisms. AntiOutsideAktion was correct here, they clocked you immediately.

“Oh so we should talk about this different thing now?” AntiOutsideAktion again tries to refocus on the topic at hand, which you are again trying to avoid. You latch on to the one thing where you feel you can have purchase, the false liberal narrative that Nazi influence in Ukraine isn’t particularly large. Ignore the absurdities in increasing democracy by cancelling elections, let’s talk about that thing you feel more comfortable with! AntiOutsideAktion has again corectly attempted to keep focus on the topic at hand despite your dishonest responses.

"I see so you’ve decided to take a violent tangent away from the conversation that made you uncomfortable and decided to impose this new conversation where you challenge me to convince you of something you adamantly refuse to be convinced of and brag about how your opaque standards of proof have never been met.

So you’re just kinda a piece of shit huh" AntiOutsideAktion has become more direct because you have failed 3 times in a row to discuss the topic at hand, trying to refocus on the topic you’re more comfortable being a little shit about. THey are correct to have done so, there is a point of diminishing returns for entertaining this kind of behavior in any capacity. I have explained this as well. YOu should understand it by now.

"Yeah. You latched onto a single thing I said in the service of talking about the actual topic and you not only want to make the entire conversation about it, you also want to pretend no other conversation existed.

You’re dishonest and pathetic." AntiOutsideAktion has to repeat themselves because you agains imply tried to discuss your preferred topic where you felt more comfortable. You expounded on it at length rather than directly respond to what was saidt o you repeatedly. AntiOutsideAktion was again correct to do this, it is a good approach, though not the only one for dealing with dishonest people.

"Do you think it’s been so long that I don’t remember my own post? What audience are you lying to? How fucking shameless. You’re just fucking stupid. To try and pull that kind of dishonesty. Honestly. Fucking stupid. On top of being a dishonest fucking low life. Christ you suck as a person. Go the fuck away please.

Completely independent of you being a nazi apologist (a nazi)." Oh wow would you look at that? They came to the same conclusion as me independently! And it’s based on… personal behavior regarding political media propaganda narratives. Not even just about positions! About how you, you personally, behave in a discussion, and how little appreciation you have for simply being honest if it means addressing an ucomforatble topic (like e.g. you are obviously wrong).

“[…] Here’s another chance to read my comment with the literacy of an adult. Try harder.” AntiOutsideAktion then provides you with the xamples of what they’re talking about and how they tried to refocus the conversation, as I have noted. You have now twice had this explaiend to you, though neither should ahve been necessary. You are perfectly capable of being honest and direct, you just choose to piss yourself when there is conflict. “You could have just as easily latched onto my mentioning the ethnic cleansing. You could have just as easily latched onto the illegal western coup that stole democracy from Ukraine in the first place. You could have just as easily stayed on the original topic of conversation and responded to the actual fucking point about how the nazi government you love so much took away the mere trappings of democracy in that country. But no. You’re too stupid for that. That would be too honest and in good faith for trash like you to engage in.” Again they correctlye xpound on your evasive behavior, how selective your responses are and how they serve your comfort zone rather than actually taking the person you’re talkign to seriously. How many people ahve to tell you that you’re deflecting, being dishonest? THat’s not a simple political disagreement! That is a personal failure that prevents discussion and correct positions.

“A petulant child gets told to return to the topic and spends multiple pages continuing to whine about how no one engages with your bad faith and declaring victory because your deeply buried post on a week old thread didn’t get any replies” Oh isn’t that familiar!? They had the same experience as I did with you. Huh. THink about that. “Oh okay. It’s because the military rules the country. That’s why it’s okay to not have democracy anymore.” Hey, if the nazis dominate miltary operations for which martial law has been declared and are rife in the ministry of the interior, what does that imply regarding the state under martial law and who rules it? Nah, let’s not think about that. A USAID propagandist said it’s overblown, I mean look at the duma where elections have been cancelled and left wing parties banned! Oh no, this might distract you from the topic though.

">but because you’re desperately trying to steer the topic away

Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. […]" Sartre quote. AntiOutsideAKtion has noticed that you follow the “I’m rubber you’re glue” school of philosophical debate where you just mimic accusations when you have nothign else to do. Now it’s AntiOutsideaktion trying to derail the conversation by talking about the same thing the entire time and reminding you of it 5 times! The nerve! I"m sure you truly believe that’s what was happening. You wouldn’t be so dishonest, would you?

This then continues for like 5 comments, just the same thing over and over again where you go on tangents and false spiels and AntiOutsideAktion reminds you that they are those things. You then adopt the exact same pretenes as you have with me and others: if only we were giving you citations and sources, y ou’d change your mind! surely that is the barrier to your understanding! Not the deflection and bullshitting and support for objectively awful things. No, it’s everyone else’s fault for not treating you like a hungry learner just looking for a good education. Funny how all of these people have the same experience with you.

In conclusion, they were correct the whole time and you’re failing toc ope with it.

You are 14 out of the 30 notifications I have remaining.

Sounds like you should read more adn stop responding to comments. The fact that people reply to you is really weighing on you.

I assume the information you say you’ve provided is probably somewhere in there.

I have maybe 2-3 comments in this thread. Are you trying to say you are going to have trouble understanding what I’m referring to? This is… difficult?

That’s after the dozens of responses to you and others in here. At a glance, just about every comment from you goes out of its way to belittle and demean me.

I’m not going out of my way, you just keep repeating the exact same misbehaviors and then try to evade when it’s called out. You have made that poor behaviro the topic by continuing to do it, making it the thing that prevents any kind of good faith discussion. So. Stop it. Go read, stop repeating yourself, and shut the fuck up until then.

I admit I’ve matched energy with some people I probably shouldn’t have, probably including you, maybe even been the one to get heated first a couple times, but god damn, man, calm the fuck down.

Do you think I’m not calm?

I’m no longer interested in being the target for your abuse.

Then shut the fuck up and stop advocating for genociders and pissing yourself when called out on it. You have nobody to blame for this but yourself.

I’ll read what you wrote so far when I get a chance over the next day or two and consider it.

Great does that mean you’re shutting the fuck up for a day or two?

If you have any good information you think I should look at, I invite you to reply with it here and I’ll try to get to it as soon as I can because, despite what you assume and try to portray me as, I’m open to learning,

I have already given you a large quantity of good information and you are being evasive about it. Please stop lying about your interest in hearing “good information”. you can return to my previous comments and respond to them in good faith when I’ve called you out on this, repeatedly. Every time I said deflect. Every time I sid evade. Every time I said avoid. Go prove your good faith.

and I’m trying to do what I can with the meager time I have, like giving up most of my one day off just to try to learn a little from a bunch of assholes who’d rather berate me.

This is your attempt at trying to learn? Being combative and condescending while evading criticisms and the evidence you supposedly want?

I’m trying, I’m open to learning, and you’re determined to make that as painful as possible.

Stop telling yourself what you are and actually be that thing.

If you feel inclined to reply or message me for anything other than relaying any material you find relevant, please go fuck yourself with a rusty rake instead.

See how you seek control of the conversation, that negative replies to you just aren’t right even though we have repeatedly pointed out what you are doing wrong. YOu can’t even acknowledge what you are doing wrong, what people are saying to you is wrong. YOu have to pretend it’s just big meanies. And dont’ we dare reply to you with anything other than lists of citations and reading materials!

I’ll try to give your recommendations an honest shot in the interest of maybe learning something, but you I have no interest in conversing with anymore.

Cool so you’re shutting the fuck up? Becuase there’s a reply from you to me in my inbox just above this one, posted after it. Lmao.

Thank you for actually bringing sources. I’ve tried to find them myself, but search engines heavily favor current events, so it’s difficult to find anything as old as these.

Go to a search engine. Select custom date range (desktop mode if on mobile). FIlter to before 2022. Easy. Very, very easy. There are also article written about this exact phenomenon of the shift of bourgeois media coverage once there was a chance for liberals to feel righteous in being Russophobic.

You did not try very hard. I spent literally 10 seconds on Google and found these kinds of articles.

I’ve probably asked literally a dozen times for sources in an honest attempt to engage with the subject, and so far, I’m FAR more likely to be verbally abused for not blindly agreeing than to actually receive information.

Because you present yourself as obstinate and combative. You say you want sources, but act like it’s a demand or a bar for others to emet rather than a favor being done for you by people who aren’t paid to educate you.

Only one person before you has even done so much as to provide a couple names as decent starting points for research. The sheer amount of vitriol combined with a complete lack of genuine evidence was making me increasingly sure it was completely baseless.

Then you need to rework the way you think.

This one makes it clear that the Nazis exist in too large a capacity, but it also outright states that some of the claims that it’s a Nazi regime are just not true. While few in number, they do seem to be receiving a concerning amount of freedom and power. This one makes it seem like the problem is bigger than I expected but still certainly not at the level people here like to portray it as. I can understand the inclination to make a deal to set aside differences temporarily and enable what they perceive to be a lesser threat to aid them against a greater mutual threat, but I’m not so sure it’s a good idea.

The article leads with a description of neo-Nazis forcing a town to change their budget at gunpoint. Those neo-Nazis were given this leeway by Kiev, they were shock troops for ethnic cleansing campaigns. As the people willing to do that work against “separatists” (people opposed to their own ethnic cleansing), they enjoyed and enjoy high posts in military and interior matters as well as state cover. From the article, “Since the Crimean crisis, the militias have been formally integrated into Ukraine’s armed forces […]”. Azov was later integrated more than described. “According to Schaaf and the Institute Respublica, Ukrainian extremists are rarely punished for acts of violence. In some cases — such as C14’s January attack on a remembrance gathering for two murdered journalists — police actually detain peaceful demonstrators instead.” THey toe the line of “To be clear, the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false: far-right parties performed poorly in Ukraine’s last parliamentary elections”, focusing on the Duma as the only seat of political power, whereas the fact they are in the ministires and have carte blanche for violence is somehow not considered contradictory of this. Again, electoralism brain prevents thinking correctly, politically. “In an ideal world, President Petro Poroshenko would purge the police and the interior ministry of far-right sympathizers, including Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who has close ties to Azov leader Andriy Biletsky,” now where have you heard that name before? And look who is close to him. The far-right is “not a hornets’ nest of fascists” but the interior minister has close ties to neo-Nazis and the neo-Nazi future deputy minister. “as well as Sergei Korotkykh, an Azov veteran who is now a high-ranking police official.” are you getting a sense for how political power is not just elections?

“As one Ukrainian analyst noted in December, control of these forces make Avakov extremely powerful and Poroshenko’s presidency might not be strong enough to withstand the kind of direct confrontation with Avakov that an attempt to oust him or to strike at his power base could well produce. Poroshenko has endured frequent verbal threats, including calls for revolution, from ultranationalist groups, so he may believe that he needs Avakov to keep them in check. Avakov’s Peoples’ Party status as the main partner in Ukraine’s parliamentary coalition increases Avakov’s leverage over Poroshenko’s Bloc. An attempt to fire Avakov could imperil Poroshenko’s slim legislative majority, and lead to early parliamentary elections. Given Poroshenko’s current unpopularity, this is a scenario he will likely try to avoid.”

Hmmmm. WHy do you think they say the Duma is not a hornets’ nest of fascists but then go on to explain how their most powerful leader is beholden to a neo-Nazi?

Who is Josh Cohen? What is USAID? Do you know?

Anyways I’m not going to go through the rest. I just want to point out that you are not being media critical nor understanding the content at hand. This is what pro-Ukraine, anti-Russia liberal propagandists were saying about the Kiev regime before 2022, this is how little they could work with and how hard they had to work to paper over contradictions. This is in stark contrast to post-2022 articles that were fully Kiev regime apologetic, seeminglyc ould not take pictures of soldiers without neo-Nazi insignia, tried to fully ignore the preceding ethnic cleansing years in Donbas, and literally, very literally, celebrated actual Nazis as heroes. And yet, your response is to try and poke holes and to buy the propaganda narrative easily with not one whit of critical analysis.

See, you could be asking questions. You could say, “Okay I read that first one and it seems to be saying X, Y, Z. What do you think about that? Am I missing something?”. But no. It’s confident, ‘it’s not that bad and doesn’t match what you all are saying’.

So AntiOutsideAktion is correct and you’re whining that they weren’t tolerant of you trying to bullshit your way through the interaction. Oh no, you poor baby.

PS I provided you with plenty of information and you decided to entirely ignore it. You are treated more nicely than you deserve and probably should ahve been banned as a troll a few days ago.

Notice that you ignored the content of my comment so you could focus on the part where I dismiss you. You have no interested in developing understanding or engaging in good faith and are correctly treated accordingly.

I provided you with specifics, with named events and individuals. You have no interest in discussing those things. Instead, you take this opportunity to whine and pretend that nobody is trying to inform you.

The other commenter engaged with you for ages, providing plenty of information for you to either (1) self-inform or (2) respectfully acknowledge that you don’t know this topic very well and that you’d appreciate them spedning the time to compile some resource for you. instead, you were combative and presumed you knew better about, say, what it means that it’s almost impossible to publish front line pictures without Neo-Nazi insignia.

You don’t “appreciate” sharing resources. YOu didn’t engage witht he resources I just provided you. Demonstrate through your actions, not empty rhetoric. Go inform. Go read. Ask respectfully for others to spend time assuming you are here in good faith, not punish them for the initial false assumption.

Members of Azov and similar groups have had high-ranking positions in Ukrainian ministries, particularly after Russia invaded. Azov itself was incorporaetd into the Ukrainian armed forces so actually all the liberals at the top are doing neo-Nazi apologia now. Previously Azov was an independent neo-Nazi outfit along with groups like Right Sector (who also have various positions in ministries). Such groups carried out ethnic cleansing campaigns in Donbas, including shelling civilian centers for years. A blatant example is Vadym Troyan, previously deputy minister of internal affairs. Jesus Christ, go learn something before you talk about it here.

Liberals think Ukraine was invented in 2022.