The mods at memes@lemmy.ml didn’t appreciate this post being popular and deleted it.
Not to be “that guy” but lemmygrad is not about national socialism. They are but jobs that will do Olympic level mental gymnastics routines to defend anything and everything Russia or China does, but that doesn’t make then Nazis, “just” on the same moral level as Nazis.
They’re tankies. Pure and simple. Sick of people calling them socialists, they aren’t even communists. They’re delusional anti-western China/Russia good, tankies.
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Exactly. It’s almost like there’s nuance and gray area. Siding entirely with one country over another in anything is almost always a bad idea. Everything? Completely illogical.
Amazing that your comment shows +15 and -0 votes at the moment. A month ago or thereabouts I made similar comments comparing Communists to Nazis in regard to how authoritarianism is bad and people hated that shit.
EDIT: haha there’s my downvotes, bring it on you commie dipshits. Fuck communism, fuck the CCP, fuck Russia and all the rest.
Communists are barely better than Nazis.
Communists are great. Authoritarians are the problem. Much like how Nazis called themselves socialists, plenty of other awful people like to adopt our words and twist them to manipulate.
I don’t think you know what communism is and how Russia /China/etc. fail at it. Speaking as a non-communist, I I think you should seek to deepen your understanding before engaging with the topic further.
There exist anti-authoritarian communists. (They’re called “anarchists”. Pro-capitalists have in relatively recent times appropriated the term, so don’t let them confuse you.) You’re getting downvotes because you’re conflating communism with authoritarianism just because you’ve personally never had experience with anarchists.
My instance doesn’t have downvotes and this feels very reddity to me
You’re right they aren’t Nazis. But they do want a warped form of national socialism. One that honestly goes against the basic intent of socialism as originally envisioned. Like the other national socialists.
Leninists, Soviet Russia, North Korea, China all qualify as socialism and communism only by the flimsiest most dishonest pretenses. They are more than an anything authoritarian. Anything else is just coincidental.
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Yea, I was banned for rule 2 for saying hexbear and lemmygrad ban you for disagreeing in reply to someone saying lemmy.world wants an ecochamber.
Also a comment got removed where I said that both hamas and Israel are bad for killing civilians. Apparently that violated rule 1 of no bigotry.
Some sussy stuff is going on in their mod team for sure.
They have a exceptionally weak worldview and can’t handle open discussions, this isn’t a surprise considering their entire instance is banned in China. They’re emulating their favorite shithole.
That shit is what kills me. They dogpile on and repeat the same bullshit arguments when they venture outside. Quickly ban any level of discourse or debate about their ideas. Then call everyone else and eco chamber because they don’t like it when your don’t agree with them.
I just got a ban as well, they didn’t like me saying I assume anyone bleating about communism online hasn’t been through puberty yet.
Lemmy.ml deleted my comments that were correcting disinformation but left the intentional lie. No explanation or notice given. Happy to explain more if anyone is actually interested.
When I called them out the called me racist for saying “CCP” and deleted my comments. They also deleted other people’s comments in the thread.
Lemmy.ml is hot fucking garbage.
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The fact that there’s no warning is ridiculous. Mods get buthurt way too quick. And the rules are vague enough so that it’s up to the discretion of the mods.
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So you made the same joke they make about libertarians and got banned? That’s kind of amusing.
They’re a bit sensitive.
You’re wrong. But we definitely agreed about the childishness of “leninists”. They’re no ones ally. Actual communists are actually pretty agreeable/chill most of the time.
Honestly can we stop using their instance for memes? Why are we coalescing in a place where you can’t criticize the place itself?
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Sh.itjust.works is a great environment too, if you’re still looking. We Sh.itheads are a friendly bunch.
We also have an NCD version.
The least credible community on the instance!
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So did I! Lemmy.ml was my first, but he quickly became an asshole.
I wonder… Maybe it’s just the mods. I had no idea what a tankie was, and the definition I was getting was ridiculous - so I went over to lemmygrad
They didn’t defend Mao or China (which is by any definition, capitalist). They just attacked America, which is whataboutism, but not the same as defending authoritarian countries… They did make a lot of nonsensical posts about dielectric dichotomies, but again, that’s an ideology without a firm core, very different from supporting genocidal regimes like Russia or China (which are again, forms of tightly controlled capitalism -ussr included)
Although I was attacked for my spelling and criticized for using the term tankie, no one actually said anything supporting authoritarian regimes. Every snipe I made at China or Russia got zero reaction
But I didn’t get any attention from the mods, maybe there’s another story there
The problem with the definition isnt that its inaccurate per se irs more so that tankies have kinda realized on some level that they get derided for it so they cover it in like 5 layers of obfuscation. Combine that with folks doing it ironically and ya get a 4chan situation where ya cant tell whos serious and whos not.
Also doesnt help that some of them are legit just anti-american and just dont think about anything outside of North America. Theyre a diverse group and the term Tankie was xreated long enough ago that its sorta becomes inaccurate with the edge cases.
Nah, I spent some time over there getting to the root of what they believe. There’s multiple shades of what they do believe, none of them were the unironic “Stalin did nothing wrong” types.
Let me tell you what clued me into the fact there was something fishy - the devs of Lemmy, the decentralized, impossible to control or monetize social network software, support highly centralized, authoritarian regimes that were always run through a form of state owned capitalism? That’s a pretty big ideological mismatch.
The term is being used as an umbrella to dismiss all communists. Over at lemmygrad, the majority is primarily Marxist-Leninist… But it’s even more fair to say they’re just anti capitalism and have been sold on the idea that that’s the only other option on the table
The problem is by labeling someone a tankie, you prevent them from engaging in the conversation they sorely need to develop a better understanding of political and economic systems. And they do need it… Their ideology ends at “the workers unite and take back control”, and movements that end up in control with no game plan are how you end up with terrible ideas, like the Soviet model
IMO, there’s a big gap between Marxist-Leninist and being a shill for authoritarian regimes… You say they’re hiding their denial of genocide because they’ve smartened up. I say who cares what’s in their hearts, if they’re not denying genocides then don’t give them the same label as those who are
Here we go again!
Thank you for your service.
They’re don’t believe in socialism, they believe in authoritarianism. Therefore, they will defend any ancillary ethos.
Nazis: Socialism for me but not for ye.
There was absolutely no socialism for anyone in the Nazi regime.
But it’s in the name!
Do you also think that the Democratic People’s Republic of Korea or the Democratic Republic of the Congo isn’t very democratic?
God forbid they believe the USSR ever did anything that could be deemed as antithetical to socialism… hmmm…
I’m so glad this instance understands the difference and has good takes on Palestine and Israel. Reddit is chockful of… shit when i decided to browse it earlier.
I can still see the ml one but if it’s here…
I don’t understand, is this supposed to say that grad is nazis? They’re very explicit about not allowing nazis and adjacent stuff.
To be honest we don’t have a real name for them. They say they support the tenets of national socialism, deride capitalism, engage in liberalism, and hate the working class.
Call them what you will. Nazi, neo-nazi, neo-neo-nazi, neo-bolshevik, I don’t know. In any case it’s all different flavours of fascism.
“Tankies” that’s the word for Nazis with a Russian coat of paint.
Edit: Lmao the downvotes. I just gave an objective description of the term OP is looking for. I’m a hardcore socialist myself and if you feel like the term “Tankie” is insulting you, then MAYBE you have an issue.
I hesitate to call them tankies because they don’t follow the same ideals. These people deride ‘the libs’ but engage in liberalism, calling themselves lgbtq friendly, then they call themselves communist but engage in materialism, they call themselves socialist but agree with authoritarianism.
I don’t know what to call them besides fascist, but fascist is so non-specific when dealing with these groups that it doesn’t help for identification. We actually need a new name for this group of fascists.
Tankies don’t have ideals, they’re just red fascists. It’s all an aesthetic.
Fascists gonna fasc.
Tankie originally meant people who supported the Soviet Union’s military action in Hungary and Czechoslovakia in the 50s and 60s https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie
They’re CCP or maybe Kremlin operatives organizing shills, LLMs, and useful idiots to spread propaganda.
That’s why it’s hard to say what they are. They aren’t actually socialists, they’re happy to support both extremes in order to increase division in their group opponents.
Won’t see any disagreement there, but those useful idiots still cling to the ideology.
Ignorance and cognitive dissonance, name a more iconic duo.
I’ve never seen a grad say they support the tenets of national socialism or that they hate the working class. Can you show me?
No, they’ve been defederated.
Based
yall must have strong defederation if you can’t even go to the grad website and see their posts.
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Based admins, I’ll leave my door open
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surely you take the accusation of nazism seriously enough to go to a website you don’t like to show proof!
do you expect me to take you at your word that the people who explicitly forbid nazis and a bunch of other right wing kooks and have a modlog filled with bans and post and comment removals for violating those rules are nazis?
Surely you are capable of shedding your own ignorance without being handheld. You know where to find what you’re looking for, library’s open.
Also because they don’t.
I am not a fan of lemmygrad or hexbear but they certainly do not advocate for national socialism.
I’ve had enough bouts with them. They don’t believe people can be racist against white people, so any slurs or derogatory insults are totally okay. They also hate social Democrats - call them colonialists. That they want all the benefits of socialism without having to give up any of their illgotten gains.
Soooo, they just expect people to fully make the jump over to pure socialism/communism, no expectations of gradual change, and think hating on whitey is totes cool.
Their most vocal are essentially hindering the growth the greater collective with this bullshit, and if they ever want to see change in their lifetimes, then need to be realistic about it.
Sure they disallow nazis, but they do exactly what nazis tend to do; alienate, dehumanize and propagandize.
there is not a big enough 🤔 emoji to reply to this post.
You can take your emoji and go read their comments calling for race-based nuclear holocaust or keep up your charade that these claims are questionable. Personally idc what you choose to do 🫡
I’m searching grad posts and comments locally for the word “nuke” and “nuclear” using new sort and there’s a whole lot of worry about states using them, some people saying more nuclear armed states would make everyone more careful and less violent but no calls for nuclear genocide.
Before I say this I wanna be as clear as possible: claiming that a whole group of people are Nazis that wanna commit nuclear genocide is serious. I’m not asking for evidence to waste your time, or to avoid doing my own searches. I have looked for myself and come up empty handed. The claims I’m seeing fly in the face of what grad says their standard is, what their modlog bear their standard out to be and my own limited experience with grad users.
I am posting here not to start a fight or waste peoples time, but because I’m open to being wrong and want to find out more.
Can you show me the comments calling for race based nuclear holocaust? If you can’t, can you point me to the instance I should search on or whose modlog I should look on to find them?
Really!? 17 hours of looking and you still haven’t found the reason they were defederated!? Remind me not to hire you as a research assistant. That sort of willful belligerence isn’t very useful. I should start calling you Clayton Bigsby.
It’s starting to look like there isn’t any…
I’ve really tried to be kind and courteous to people when asking about this stuff but the level of pushback and runaround just in response to my comments in this thread are absurd.
When someone doesn’t see the thing you say is happening, what’s the big deal with showing them?
I’m not trying to win an argument or waste anyone’s time (a person could argue I’m wasting my own).
If there are posts espousing the tenets of national socialism, hating the working class or calling for nuclear genocide why not just link them?
I’m trying in what little free time I have to find evidence but it’s not forthcoming! I have to cast a wide net and that makes the search slow. If you know what to look for or where to look, tell me!
Unless of course it’s all made up…
Well then you better take your conspiracy to the lemmy.world admins fast! They need to know they were wrong. Better hurry! Don’t want innocent little goosesteppers unable to post here!
I’m sorry we separated you from your fascist fuck buddies.
There’s a huge astroturfing campaign going on in Lemmy.World. Just kick these rightwingers’ teeth in.
The mods on lemmy.ml are a bunch of sensitive bitches. I once made a meme criticizing the lack of concrete rules… It got deleted
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Don’t like it, don’t use it. Why are you being a crybaby?
The only concrete rule is don’t question authority
I filter that whole server. It’s a ridiculous amount of propaganda.
Users need the power to block servers.
Users also need the ability to block replies on specific comments/posts. Say anything that goes against their group think and you’ll get a ton of replies
It’s an upcoming general feature, but in the meantime several of the third party apps let you block by instance. I use Connect, and I’ve heard Boost does too.
I blocked hexbear, because they tend to start fights everywhere, and the NSFW instances so I can use my phone around my kids.
national socialismauthoritarian communismFIFY
For sure, i live in canada, which has socilistic institutions (national healthcare, social security, ect)
I’m a huge fan of some socialism, but do NOT want to see full communism.
These are not socialist institutions, they’re capitalist institutions. You pay for their services and you get the services you were promised.
Sorry, can you please explain to all us non Americans how nationalized healthcare is not a socialist institution?
As a non American person living in Britain, I pay insurance called National Insurance and then get medicine when needed. And if I don’t pay, I don’t get shit. How’s that socialist?
Then nothing is socialized. My tax monies go to roads, in a single payer tax based collective system. Same with military, fire, ect.
“Socialized medicine is, by definition, a healthcare system in which the government owns and operates healthcare facilities and employs the healthcare professionals, thus also paying for all healthcare services”
That’s it, and both UK and Canadian healthcare is socialized. You can argue that cows are 6" red spheres until you are blue in the face, but the rest of us will just regard you as… Special.
But the British government doesn’t employ doctors and doesn’t own the facilities. It is not socialised.
Can you do me the basic decency of reading my first message, way back two months ago, which you responded to?
I know reading is really hard, and two months ago is forever ago, but if you try really hard, I’m sure you can do it.
Two months ago I said something like “in Canada…” To which you responded “that’s not socialized healthcare”…
Now, does “Canada” sound like “the United Kingdom”?
Wow, isn’t that something!
Now that we’ve established I EXPLICITLY WAS TALKING ABOUT CANADA!!!, with regard to the UK…
"All English residents are automatically entitled to free public health care through the National Health Service, including hospital, physician, and mental health care. The National Health Service budget is funded primarily through general taxation. Which is a single payer healthcare system based on tax, instead of a capital driven multi-payer system, which is exactly what socialized medicine is.
They don’t need to be owned or employed by the government for it to be socialized. You’re confusing communism with socialism.
That is a text book example of a socialist institution. The clue might be in the name.
I think the issue is somehow socialist institutions have gotten a bad name/are thought to be unnatural.
Thats… the definition of a socialistic institute. Collective healthcare is socialistic, while for profit is capitalistic.
By your definition, the USSR was capitalistic, since they paid for everything through their taxes.
Tax system in USSR was very different to capitalist states.
Which doesn’t change the fact that you are still talking about socialistic healthcare… The USSR tax system could have been based in oranges, and that wouldn’t change what is and is not socialistic healthcare.
Did you really wait 2 months to necro a thread, to argue a random point which doesn’t help your argument?
Again, the tax system in the USSR was different. You didn’t get a service for free because you paid taxes, you actually didn’t pay them. You got a service for free because it was owned by the government and you were owned by the government. It’s like your office job provides you with a chair, the same way your mine job in the USSR provided you with healthcare.
As for necro, notifications in Lemmy are fucked.
Are you saying you responded to this message 2 months ago, and no notification was sent until now?
In real world terms, sure, but this was definitely a reference to what the Nazis called themselves.
average .ml behavior lol
You’re not one of those delusional right wing fucks who think Hitler was a leftist because Nazi had the word socialist in it are you?
No, I’m one of those very cognizant democratic socialists who knows the difference between a tankie and neo-nazis playing dress up as leftists.
Funny thing about real socialists and communists, they hate authoritarianism too.
Hexbear/Lemmygrad are extreme and authoritarian, but that does not a Nazi make.
Just call them tankies, no need to dilute the waters with Nazi co-opting of left wing concepts. All that does is associate socialism and nazism, something no real leftist would do.
The term you’re looking for is neo-nazi. It stands for neo-liberal national socialist. They believe in liberalism, and socialism, but only under the yoke of authoritarianism.
It doesn’t stand for anything. It’s just “Neo-Nazism” and the “neo” means “new,” and just distinguishes them as post-WW2 nazis. Neo-nazis do not believe in liberalism or socialism.
The new neo-nazi’s do.
Neo-Neo-Nazis?
Sort of?
Closer to Neo-Bolsheviks? Maybe? This is the problem, no name for them yet. So I’ve been sticking to Nazi and neo-nazi.
I’m not convinced these ‘tankies’ believe in anything at all, it all feels like a fake display so they can spread propaganda under the radar of most people.
You really have no idea what you’re talking about.
I’m talking about the people were dealing with, not your inflexible understanding of pre-existing fascist idealisms.
Sounds like general nonsense to me.
Books can fix that.
Neoliberalism is not Nazism?
Neoliberalism is a rightwing reimagining of the already rightwing Liberalism. Its primary concerns are how to reduce social benefits, fuck over citizens, and further enrich the rich.
The fuck has your education system let you down mate?
The fuck has your education system let you down mate?
Has yours? National socialists only care about how they can use socialism to benefit themselves through the lens of liberalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism
Nazis don’t use any fucking socialism.
The links say otherwise.
They constantly criticize “libs”, though, by which they mean classical or neo-liberalism.
And yet say they are lgbtq friendly, and consider themselves materialists.
I’ve found that self-identified leftists oppose the identity politics characteristic of US style liberalism. Some say this is because divisions in society such as gender, orientation and race, are used to distract from class and economic issues. Theoretically communism is egalitarian in terms of race and gender. They seem to hate the US politicians who advocate for race/gender/orientation equality and workers rights though, while rarely criticizing the fascist wing, so it doesn’t all make much sense to me.
If self awareness was a disease they’d be the healthiest people alive.
So like, do you understand what materialism means in socialist philosophy? It’s clear by the way you’ve used the word in this thread that you think it just means “likes having stuff.”
How do you run around calling yourself a socialist when you don’t even know what historical and dialectical materialism are?
I like the way you try to frame a disingenuous question while wrapping it in a layer of personal assumptions.
They refuse to denigrate conservatives because that style of politics is too close to daddy china
Your inability to understand this situation explains why you’re so angry about nonsense and unable to identify the politics of this meme.
No Lemmygrad is unironically populated by Nazis
Dog, I agree with your point and I wanted to downvote you. There’s so many better ways to frame this idea
Good post
Appreciated.
I have the time. I mean, it’s gotta be a pretty short conversation because there are no benefits.
I mean, there are if you’re „arian“, not disabled or otherwise made a target and don’t get snitched on by your neighbors.
In that case you can live like a „free“ person while people around you „disappear“ which would not freak you out at all. (/s)
You are not actually free though because if you openly criticize anything, you disappear as well.
I suppose the common theme is „murderous authoritarianism“.
There’s another name for rightwingers: regressivist idiots.
Response from Lemmy.world “Do you have a second to remove my boot from your ass?"
Can someone tell me what specifically got Lemmygrad.ml defederated? Was there a particular post or community or a pattern of behavior?
Pattern of behaviour that the Lemmygrad.ml mods both allowed and participated in. Many of the Lemmygrad communities had already been defederated before this point due to moderation issues.
I believe there was a server, “Meanwhile on grad” watching their clearly hysterical behaviour. It was very much like subreddits watching TheDonald, the mods are idiots, too. I’m sure that “Meanwhile on grad” server still exists, but I got subscriptions and stopped looking at other servers.
![Bye Felicia [Crosspost]](https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/56140da0-2b80-4a33-990a-62d65cd9b393.jpeg){kind=link}